Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom

To help centralise discussions and keep related topics together, Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions and Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions redirect here.

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by when more than 3 sections are present.

Calendar: current deadline is highlighted, and current UTC date is 2024-11-05 21:43:45.

The Signpost currently has 5601 articles, 701 issues, and 13657 pages (4456 talk and 9201 non-talk).

Current issue: Volume 20, Issue 14 (2024-10-19) · Purge

issue page · archive page · single-page edition · single-page talk (create)

Articles and pageviews for 2024-10-19

Pageviews for 2024-10-19 (V)
Subpage	Title	7-day	15-day	30-day	60-day	90-day	120-day	180-day
Traffic report	A scream breaks the still of the night	445	610	648	648	648	648	648
Recent research	"As many as 5%" of new English Wikipedia articles "contain significant AI-generated content", says paper	2514	2966	3063	3063	3063	3063	3063
News and notes	One election's end, another election's beginning	1834	2230	2328	2328	2328	2328	2328
In the media	Off to the races! Wikipedia wins!	1759	1993	2034	2034	2034	2034	2034
Humour	The Newspaper Editors	2939	3197	3256	3256	3256	3256	3256
Crossword	Spilled Coffee Mug	424	584	627	627	627	627	627
Contest	A WikiCup for the underdeveloped world	1713	1823	1844	1844	1844	1844	1844
Book review	The Editors	1242	1386	1423	1423	1423	1423	1423

Previous issue: 2024-09-26 · issue page · archive page · single-page edition · single-page talk

Articles and pageviews for 2024-09-26

Pageviews for 2024-09-26 (V)
Subpage	Title	7-day	15-day	30-day	60-day	90-day	120-day	180-day
Community view	Indian courts order Wikipedia to take down name of crime victim, editors strive towards consensus	3693	4043	4350	4381	4381	4381	4381
Traffic report	Jump in the line, rock your body in time	619	803	986	1008	1008	1008	1008
Serendipity	A Wikipedian at the 2024 Paralympics	1946	2162	2447	2478	2478	2478	2478
Recent research	Article-writing AI is less "prone to reasoning errors (or hallucinations)" than human Wikipedia editors	1956	2274	2515	2582	2582	2582	2582
Opinion	asilvering's RfA debriefing	2129	2327	2479	2522	2522	2522	2522
News and notes	Are you ready for admin elections?	821	1001	1219	1248	1248	1248	1248
In the media	Courts order Wikipedia to give up names of editors, legal strain anticipated from "online safety laws"	2043	2790	3552	3645	3645	3645	3645
Gallery	Are Luddaites defending the English Wikipedia?	5287	5729	6145	6203	6203	6203	6203

Articles and pageviews for previous issues/years

20:14 News and notes

I just wanted to let you know that João Alexandre Peschanski, the executive director of the Wiki Movement Brazil User Group, has co-signed a collective op-ed involving more than 150 international researchers and calling for more support and protection to those who study disinformation and its perceived impact on public opinion.

Do you think this might be notable enough for N&N, or should we just mention it on the ITM column? Oltrepier (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems more fitting in News and notes than ITM to me, given that it isn't really originating from a news outlet. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator elections

Enforcing "no declarations of support or opposition"

Each candidate's page has this notice:

Please do not cast votes or issue any declarations of support/opposition here. This section is for neutral discussion. Voting will take place using SecurePoll from 25 October.

I'm wondering how this will be enforced, and if we should mention either the notice, or the intended enforcement, at this issue's News and notes? ☆ Bri (talk) 03:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Election guides

I suppose we aren't going to link to election guides prepared by members of the community, but thought I'd throw it out there for discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar

Maybe worth a mention? Maybe afterwards? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri Yes, we could write about those afterwards! Oltrepier (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not worth a mention, but

I thought this video [1] was a little funny since he's showing how to avoid the sponsored links from his own newsorg. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Well, ITM is never too tight for this kind of news! : ) Oltrepier (talk) 20:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 looks kind of light

Only four columns have been started, and we are about 76 hours from our writing deadline. Just putting this out there in case more starts are on the way. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri: I didn't come across your own thread, so sorry for that... I've also noticed that the upcoming issue is currently a bit thin on contributions, and the main columns (especially N&N) still need a lot of work.

Maybe we could postpone the deadline to two-three days later, so we could solve these issues without having to rush it.

@JPxG: How do you feel about it? Oltrepier (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow we posted 1 minute apart! Was it an edit conflict? Great minds think alike. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri I don't really see myself as a "great mind", especially after my mistake, but this is definitely astounding! : D Oltrepier (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 In the media

Signatures at the In brief section

I noticed this month several bulleted items at In brief have writer's signatures. It doesn't particularly bother me, but to my recollection we don't think we usually do it that way. Should they be retained, and if so, should we add them to the remainder of the items? ☆ Bri (talk) 23:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added them, since it was the practice the last few times I was a co-writer (see User:Josve05a/The Signpost). Sorry if not the standard any more - feel free to remove if that would be better. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 05:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri @Josve05a Sorry, I'm reading this just now, but I wanted to let you know that I've boldly removed any signature from the section. Oltrepier (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Under the radar"

I found this great illustration of literal "under the radar" flight, but decided not to use it becuase considering the background of world events, maybe we want to un-link this commentary from literal military activities. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plagiarism in 2009 book

I added some brief coverage of that new plagiarism case. This could still benefit from some more detail; perhaps we can add a bit of Wikipedia-specific perspective to the general news media reporting on the issue. Regards, HaeB (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very important item and I'm glad you included it. The Wikipedia plagiarism specifically is now mentioned at The Telegraph, The Times of India and other first-tier international newspapers, as well as US cable news media. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might be worth including plagiarism today's fuller analysis, seeing as this was the dude quoted by NYT and he describes that the NYT had not given all the passages over. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 13:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Updated, thanks. Regards, HaeB (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

gone for 1.5 days

I'll be out of touch for most of the next 2 days. @JPxG: don't forget the book reviews! 18:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the media warning (Google News glitch)

A couple of times now I've added items to In the media, that were not recent. They popped up in Google News tagged as recent: in the latest case, Google News said a nine year old item was from 2 days ago. Just a caution to others not to get caught by this like I was. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Google News has been completely cooked the last couple years or so. They have been messing with it for unclear reasons -- if you search for a string with quotation marks in it, it will now just start returning completely random dog shit: blogs, tiktoks, facebook posts, formatted like news sites. Their documentation gives no explanation for this other than the implied "get bent". I basically stopped writing articles about recent events because it's been made unusable, although it is not as bad now as it was a year or two ago (some genius decided that it should just return tiktoks for every search whatsoever). jp×g 🗯️ 20:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14

Setting this forward -- I have some stuff from WCNA and am contemplating an interview/letter. jp×g 🗯️ 14:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I've been away from my computer with IRL stuff. Another book review has been submitted, so I think we should publish them in the in the 'Book review' column with the earliest on top. I can write a humor piece that pokes fun at how we've mentioned this book in every of the past few issues. To make it clear, I support the book reviews being published, so the humor column will be self-deprecating. Does anybody have objections? Svampesky (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky Sounds good!

By the way, sorry for my very limited contributions this time around... Oltrepier (talk) 09:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Forward again to be on the safe side rather than over publication deadline. jp×g 🗯️ 23:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for keeping the deadline updated. We have been running a bit late with the preparations for RR, but I should have some time later today to get it in a publishable form before the deadline. I see there is also work still to do in N&N and ITM - I might be able to pitch in there too, but probably not before the deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 17:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who wrote the bit about the latest WikiConference North America over at ITM? Somebody forgot to add their signature, but I couldn't find any information from the talk page...

@Bri @HaeB @Josve05a @Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Robertsky Oltrepier (talk) 16:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found it [2], added attribution to @Smallbones. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Help copyediting?

Spamming everyone listed as copyeditors on our staff page, @Gerald Waldo Luis, Headbomb, Isaacl, and Adam Cuerden: – both In the media and News and notes still need to be signed off, if you can help. Thanks! ☆ Bri (talk) 00:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a late submission, and a bunch of stuff still needing to get done; I have somewhere to be tonight, so I guess I will just put the damn thing forward another day. jp×g 🗯️ 01:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

😿 jp×g 🗯️ 02:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri @JPxG Just so you know, I've managed to go through both ITM and N&N and do some more copy-editing myself: I hope this makes up for my deeply underwhelming contributions this time around...

On a side note, I must say I'm impressed with how the In the media column has turned out: it sounds like a very rich and interesting read! Oltrepier (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Oltrepier! Just to clarify for others reading along who might be inclined to help out too: Both ITM and N&N are still not yet marked as copyedited - see the Article status list - and (more importantly) still contain several open to-do items, look for the yellow markings. (I resolved one in N&N while also correcting a mistake, and may be able to help out with more, but will focus on getting RR publishable first.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the outstanding highligted to-dos in News and notes and it is ready for (another?) copyedit. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, things are shaping up a little better, I will have another go at it shortly. jp×g 🗯️ 19:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably idiotic disclosure

I started an article on The Editors, duly logged with my other September creations, and it got deleted. IMHO this has nothing to do with anything, but there it is on the record. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 Recent research

As usual, we are preparing this regular survey on recent academic research about Wikipedia, doubling as the Wikimedia Research Newsletter (now in its fourteenth year). Help is welcome to review or summarize the many interesting items listed here, as are suggestions of other new research papers that haven't been covered yet. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this missed the writing deadline, in fact it is now 3 hours past the publishing deadline. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, the paper I was writing up during the time I had earlier today turned out to be a bit trickier to review than expected. I'm back at this now, but am also not offended if the issue goes out without it in the meantime. (That said, several other sections also still look unfinished at this point or are at least marked as needing copyedits.)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there somewhere the intermediate versions of the column are kept? It may help things out for others to be able to contribute to it during the writing process. jp×g 🗯️ 01:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure this is what you mean, but the Etherpad has starting ideas and can be used for drafting. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I always post the Etherpad link here inviting people to contribute, which also helps to keep track of which papers are being worked on (and which are not). As for posting partial drafts and unfinished notes on-wiki, we don't do that for most other Signpost stories either, and I'm generally unconvinced that it would speed up the process (in fact it might well slow it down). That said, I did in fact post an intermediate version yesterday after seeing JPxG's question (and knowing that I would not be able to resume work on it for a bit), with remaining to-do items marked - but except for one typo fix (thanks Smallbones!) this doesn't seem to have had an effect. (Btw for context about this particular review and its timing: This is about a very recent paper which I had tweeted about on Monday based on a quick skim only - as we usually do on the WikiResearch feed -, and which has received quite a bit of attention since, e.g. [3]. After reading the paper more fully, I think it would be valuable for us to provide timely context in form of a full review; in the "Wikimedia AI" Telegram group, folks raised questions about the paper's results too.)

I'm back at this now and should have RR publishable within less than two hours from now.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A book that plagiarized Wikipedia

Hi fellows. I think that this book chapter deserves a mention in Signpost. Its available from WPLibrary. I tried to summarize the findings from chapter 4, that deals with our entries. Learn about it after this excerpt in Retraction Watch: "A look at plagiarism at the Pontifical Gregorian University".

A recent book by Brill Publishers on research integrity reports several plagiarism cases in publications by Pontifical Gregorian University.^[1] Entitled “Shake-and-Paste Plagiarism from Internet Sources”, Dougherty's chapter four analyzes a 2012 book about Zera Yacob^[2] that, without attribution, copied and mixed texts from our 2010 versions of Philosophical methodology, Dialectic, Nature and Nature (philosophy). (p.181)

References

^ Michael V. Dougherty (21 May 2024). New Techniques for Proving Plagiarism: Case Studies from the Sacred Disciplines at the Pontifical Gregorian University. Leiden, Boston: Brill Publishers. doi:10.1163/9789004699854. ISBN 978-90-04-69985-4. LCCN 2024015877. Wikidata Q126371346.
^ Kidane Dawit Worku (2012). The Ethics of Zär'a Ya'eqob: A reply to the historical and religious violence in the seventeenth century Ethiopia. Tesi Gregoriana, Serie Filosofia 30. Rome: Editrice Pontificia Università Gregoriana. ISBN 978-88-7839-222-9. OL 43974394M. Wikidata Q126414328.

Cheers! Ixocactus (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 Contest

The article contains a big pile of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE violations. However a) I know that The Signpost doesn't necessarily follow formatting rules employed in the rest the encyclopedia article space and b) I might be going out on a limb already in aggressively addressing this in beauty pageant articles so I will stop with this comment. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

thank you @Bri & @Smallbones for helping copyedit. that section of the article is a copy-paste of a talk page comment not written by me, and i have no opinion on whether the flagicons stay or go - it's not in mainspace, so i think it's up to our preference more than anything in the MOS. courtesy pinging @GreenLipstickLesbian in case she has any thoughts. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 21:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good title and image? I'll try but please replace as needed. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ready when you are!

@HaeB, JPxG, and Bri: With a few exceptions, I think this issue is ready to go!

HaeB, I know you want to complete Recent research, but your review is pretty good already.
JxPG The tripartite book review needs to be copyedited (bottom 2 reviews only IMHO). Also we need to let the reader know that 3 reviews are coming about the same book. Otherwise they might be surprised. So a Simple 3 line editor's introduction up top would be enough, explaining why we have 3 reviews (without overwhelming the reader). Yeah, there might be a few things with pics, titles, etc.
Bri Just 'cause I always ping you when something needs to get done.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

taking a nap and waiting on a final submission and will then be ready jp×g 🗯️ 07:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think you need to hold up publication for a bit and reconsider. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oh? D: ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because of humour, or something else? I got part way through the book review copyedit but didn't finish. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've been drafting it off-wiki with JPxG's approval to make sure everything is appropriate and kept general. Svampesky (talk) 15:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri @JPxG @Smallbones I've managed to go through the Book review column, hopefully it helps! Oltrepier (talk) 20:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I misunderstood what this was in response to. I wasn't aware of any reasons to object to the humor column. My Yes was based on thinking that Because of humour, or something else? was a response to JPxG's waiting on a final submission. Per the request of JPxG, it was reviewed offline to determine if it was suitable for hosting on Wikipedia and publishing in The Signpost. I haven't been communicated any reasons to not run it.

The joke is that it's in the style of an opinion piece from the misinformed-view that The Signpost must adhere to mainspace article policy and guidelines; published in The Signpost, lambasting The Signpost. What's the issue with this? Svampesky (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's now over two days since that nap began, and over six days since the originally planned publication deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 Humour

@JPxG, Svampesky, Bri, HaeB, and Jayen466: Until the last edit at "Humour" the main issue was that it is not funny, there's no humour in it. Please see this essay that's linked to our Humour resources here. It's not humour mainly because it's just whingeing. There's no surprise or misdirection. Just constant complaint. Not funny! Other important issues with it are supposedly linking to research papers which are not there and impugning the honesty and credibility of The Signpost and all its staff. We have a reputation to protect and having a staff member write that The Signpost is total garbage is the exact opposite of what we want to do.

There's another issue that goes beyond that: you've continued to edit the "humour" after publication without checking with anybody here and just making things much worse. Before adding to an article - it's not just copy editing - at a minimum you need to get JPxG's approval. Everything that's published must be approved by the editor-in-chief. The additions just look like provocations. The worst by far is that last edit. It looks like you are accusing me and others of paid editing. Anybody who wants to accuse me of paid editing, can make that accusation where I can be expected to see it, say it to my face. And then I can give you a proper response.

I'll suggest that somebody should delete that last line until JPxG can decide what he wants to do, then we should not respond, either here or at the article talk but just leave that garbage alone, only reverting future edits to it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've speedily removed that line. The line was added by JPxG at Special:Diff/1252023940. The reason I changed the word 'docked' to 'deduced' at Special:Diff/1252273371 is because the word 'docked' is a close-homophone to 'doxxed'. Svampesky (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i think the word you were looking for is "reduced"; to deduce is "to arrive at (a fact or a conclusion) by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion." (Oxford) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word I meant to use was 'deducted'. So I apologize for any implications that my error caused. Svampesky (talk) 17:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other than my error (changing a word on a line that was added by JPxG), I don't see the any issue with the content. In fact, a commenter on the book review column (Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-10-19/Book review) actually agrees with sentiments of the humor column, that The Signpost has launched an "outrageous promotional campaign" for this book. Svampesky (talk) 17:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If so, then I don't think the Signpost humour column is the right place to critique that. Andreas JN 466 17:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"No ping" template

Some of us are using Template:No ping in articles whenever mentioning and linking a user's account, in order to prevent the user being pinged. Note that this is not necessary: the notification system is only triggered by signed posts (i.e., signed using the four tildes). See Template:No ping#Purpose and WP:Ping. Best, Andreas JN 466 11:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to be honest and say I don't actually know when or how it was decided that we should use the noping templates. It doesn't seem like a very good idea (indeed, I haven't used them in a very long time). If we're writing about someone, if anything, we ought to go out of our way to ping them so they can see it. If they have anything to say, at least in my experience, every time it is to make a correction and say "actually that was on the 12th not the 13th" or something of that nature. A couple months ago there was a brief discussion on this topic, I believe because Piotrus had been mentioned in some article and said he'd have preferred a ping when it was being drafted -- this was when I found out that just linking a username in an edit didn't ping, only if you signed it... jp×g 🗯️ 09:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About when "noping" began. I don't know, except that when I started as E-i-C it was one of the first strange things I noticed. Strange to me - that is. I starting out wondering what the verb nope-ing meant. It took me about 15 minutes to figure out what it is, and most of what it doesn't do. In any case it was here in spades, and I figured "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but be consistent about it.

Something else similar - I noticed then that some people used "The Signpost" and some used the "Signpost". I didn't have time to get into an argument about it, so I decided I'd use "The Signpost" for myself wherever it was comfortable to use until I could decide. It would be easier to switch to "Signpost" from "The Signpost" than vice versa. It became quite comfortable after 2 or 3 months. End of my knowledge of copy editing history.

I almost forgot JPxG, Jayen466, HaeB and Bri

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two issues a) I think it's good practice to use the full name of The Signpost at least on first mention b) I don't see why using {{noping}} is an issue. At worst it's unnecessary, but harmless. I use it myself while I'm typing so I can clear a mental flag "do I need to remember whether or not I'm signing what I'm writing right now", because I often don't want to ping editors in other contexts such as sockpuppet investigations. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WMF office action for Delhi Court

I started the article at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/News_and_notes.

I invited existing editors to contribute at Talk:Asian_News_International#Lawsuit_article_removed.

Bluerasberry (talk) 14:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an article from The Hindu. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that quote about OFFICE actions from The Hindu is clearly not factual for our history. Most such actions involve blanking the related article while the issue is resolved. I remember the same thing being done with Choose Your Own Adventure thirteen years ago (and many of us being really irate about it). Silver seren^C 17:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)I'll admit I didn't follow this case as closely as I might have. I don't understand why the lawsuit article is blocked but the article about the corporation is not. Surely the allegedly defamatory information is in the alleged bad acts such as Asian News International#Propaganda and #Misinformation. No? ☆ Bri (talk) 15:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri: I interact off-wiki with many professionals in online media, including university faculty, lawyers, and software developers. When I talk with Wikipedia editors, the editors are often surprised when I say that highly trained and experienced Internet professionals have difficulty understanding the difference between a platform (like YouTube, Instagram, or Wikipedia) and its user community (like YouTubers, Instagrammers, or Wikipedians). Based on what I have read in the media, the court's public statements express a lack of awareness between these two, which I feel is a totally normal misunderstanding, although the lack of distinction is strange to Wikipedians. I think the court presumes that the Wikimedia Foundation's staff journalists wrote this article, and again, I think that is a very typical perspective which would be common in the courts of any country. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just reading a bit about this in the press now. I think we should consider running a special issue just for this, as historic government control of enwp contents and our community process itself. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

a special issue seems like a good idea - people have been talking about this quite a lot and it stirs up a ton of opinions. it would also then get its own comments section, which i think would also be beneficial ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For speculative reasons, we should be prepared to do this one with JPxG's alternative publication methodology. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest publishing offwiki somehow, give the office action. I'd assume the office action will be applied broadly, and cover the Signpost as well - causing even the Signpost to be censored perhaps. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have nothing which suggests that the office action will be applied broadly, note that it has not been applied to Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF) or any other page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The same logic applies, though, and as soon as the court notices the other conversations they could issue an identical demand, and the WMF would be likely to make the identical response. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, I think its very unlikelely that the WMF will nuke the (by my count) nearly 100 pages (and growing by the hour) with content related to the case... And we both know how wikipedia works, more and more coverage just means it gets included on more and more pages until Wikipedia and India themselves get nuked... You can't fight NPOV across the system, just look at all the coverage we already have from just the one page removal[4][5][6][7]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't apply precedent to a situation that is unprecedented. This is literally the first time that WMF has blanked a page at a government's demand. At this time IMO we're just assuming that the court remains technically inept at enforcing their own contempt orders (like this other editor said). ☆ Bri (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that it is, but the discussion in which people listed precedents (which I believe were all either pre-2020 or on other language wikis... There was a French pornography house) was I think on the now vanished talk page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pppery listed a list of office actions for en-wiki on their t/p; it might be useful. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fr.wiki OAs

In 2024, WMF also took two content-related OAs at fr.wiki. fr:Wikipédia:Legifer/juin 2024#Suite concernant les deux suppressions juridiques effectuées par la Fondation Wikimedia sur fr-WP is WMF's statement; I found it interesting because it seemed like an unprecedentedly detailed intervention (not attributing any negative motives, though; it's perhaps helpful) by WMF into content, going to the extent of suggesting how the community ought to write articles, deal with COI requests, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wish they had posted the original in English, which was machine translated to French and posted. Because now I'm reading a machine translation back to English, which ain't good. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did they actually remove the articles in those cases? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship / publishing restrictions on The Signpost

There are currently no publishing restrictions on The Signpost and I have no reason to believe that there will be. However, the Wikimedia community is discussing the possibility of such a thing happening.

The Wikimedia Foundation has restricted Wikipedia from publishing an article about the lawsuit. Questions:

To what extent does the Wikimedia Foundation restrict The Signpost from publishing journalism about the lawsuit?
To what extent does the Wikimedia Foundation restrict Wikimedia community discussion in the Wikimedia platform about the lawsuit?

I anticipate that the answer to both of those is "not all all, and the Wikimedia Foundation encourages the Wikimedia community to set its own ethical and social governance principles", but because the issue is being raised, I wrote to WMF legal yesterday asking for clarification. I woke up this morning thinking more that it would be better to share that I asked the question at all.

If need be, The Signpost team can migrate the publication off-wiki to an independent platform, and the Wikimedia community can practice independent journalism. Right now there is no reason to do this, as the Wikimedia Foundation has always protected and encouraged The Signpost's community journalism. If anyone ever feels a Wikimedia Foundation restriction on The Signpost, then please call it out and share it, but personally, I have never felt anything but support. (Aside, I always have wished for more WMF transparency and access to information as it is challenging for journalists to get access to information, but I do not see journalist restriction on journalist values.)

As stated above, JPxG has an alternative publication methodology planned for The Signpost. I hope that there is no need to migrate off-wiki. I really do not want to encounter any friction with WMF legal efforts in India, which I support. I believe that the WMF legal team completely supports The Signpost mission. I simply am unsure of what the lawsuit means for Signpost journalistic freedom.

Thanks @Elli, Bri, Josve05a, Sawyer777, TrangaBellam, Horse Eye's Back, and Silver seren: for commenting on this issue. Please remain present. Let's all support free journalism, the WMF legal team, and Wikimedia community ethics and values. I am sure that none of these are in conflict, but sometimes it happens that legal teams are under pressure to make odd requests. Bluerasberry (talk) 13:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proceed with routine journalism Right now this is my recommendation. JPxG as editor-in-chief may share their views. The Signpost organizes Wikipedia volunteer editors to produce and publish journalism. Right now, please help to recruit more contributors to produce journalism in any of the suggested format types listed at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom. If you need assistance, then please message here. It would be very helpful to have multiple diverse Wikimedia community perspectives, including journalism reporting facts, opinions and editorials, reviews of comparable situations, and statements of our values.

If anyone needs editorial support then you can message here, email me, or also connect with me to talk by voice or video to get you started. Thanks. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry: I saw your very rough draft at from the editor (next issue) and I disagree with some of it. First we should realize that we are NOT a newsletter! The connotation of a newsletter is something planned by some boss to get out the organization's semi-official news out, organized by the boss's secretary who farms out the writing assignments to the officially trusted folks who will give the official story in a down-home folksy manner. That's not us, we're newspaper. We've been a newspaper since the 2nd paragraph of the 1st issue (right after Welcome!) Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-01-10/From the editor

"The name, The Wikipedia Signpost, was chosen to be like the name of a newspaper, since a newspaper is what I would call this project. Though it will almost certainly never appear on newsprint paper, it will nevertheless take on this role for our community. It should have some resemblance to the other newspapers you may happen to read in the course of your life (which I venture to guess many of you read online anyway, rather than the paper copy)."

So let's call it what it is: a newspaper.

There's also the material about nobody ever trying to censor us. Unfortunately there used to be something of a minor tradition of admins or other bigwigs coming into the newsroom and telling us what we should or could or couldn't publish. I've even seen cases of pre-publication censorship (I won't be able to link to most of these but see Itm in late December 2020 for one). It's not the WMF who did this, though I've seen a mild suggestion or two and one expression telling me they thought I was flat out wrong (all fair enough). We're an independent newspaper so I think the E-i-C's job on this is to start out trying to smooth out ruffled feathers at first, while gently showing the intruders the door, but vigorously defending the journalists' right to publish what they and the E-i-C think is proper. It's not that we are above WP rules, just like any journalists we have to follow the law of the community we live in, but that we don't have to follow the whims of the bigwigs, nor meet special requirements made up just for us.

I think of The Signpost as being something like a small town newspaper, with say a target audience of about 3,000 people, all living near a major amusement park, where most of them work, located just off the exit of the main branch of the information superhighway. We may not know all the inhabitants, but we almost surely know somebody who knows somebody who knows anybody we can name. Our "police reporter" (if we had one) might have a brother or a couple of uncles on the force, so we can't be purely objective on every story, but bringing in outsiders who don't know the town wouldn't work too well either. We just do the best job we can, and call 'em as we see 'em..

What does this have to do with Indian courts? Well, sometimes strangers wander into town and don't know our small town customs, but we should make an effort to AGF. We don't have to follow what the state governor (initials W.M.F.) says we should do, but at least in the short term they may be in a better place to handle it. Moving our printing press out of town might not help much, and would probably just put us in the same position as those woeful people who tried that a decade ago. It's better IMHO that we stay in the community to try to serve it, rather than just hurl insults and try to tell the townfolks what to do. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of the stuff I said at the VPWMF thread, plus this, basically, jp×g 🗯️ 17:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"we are NOT a newsletter"

We ARE a newsletter (i.e. a small publication focusing mainly on the activities of an organization and its members [8]). That doesn't mean we cannot also have journalistic aspects or that we don't deal in objective reporting, or that we should be censored or that we aren't editorially independent or whatever. The connotation Smallbones wants newsletters to have is his own projection. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is tough. On the one side I want to support independent discussion and the integrity of The Signpost. On the other hand, a lot of the discussion I see at VP could quickly become essentially bear-baiting. It feels like going around in the dark without knowing what the repercussions are of continuing to discuss the court when they have ordered us not to. And part of what's tough is I don't feel individually compelled to follow the Indian court, but there is potential blowback to the Wikimedia movement, which I am part of and care about. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smallbones: Please edit. I was just drafting content, because we need a statement. I do not need that "from the editor" piece in my voice, but we do need such a piece. Now is the time to define this publication, so let's be a newspaper. Bluerasberry (talk) 01:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I don't think my thoughts just above @Bluerasberry:'s should replace his, but it was good getting a few things off my chest. But the tone of my comments would not be good for the "from the editor" article he started. The point is that we can and should maintain "The Signpost's" independence, but we can wait if we want before taking a step that might upset the whole apple cart. Ultimately that decision will be made by Signpost staff, with JPxG having the final decision. There's no point doing something that could cutoff Wikipedia's 3rd largest national group of readers (Indian) from Wikipedia access. It's no secret right now what's going on. Patience can be a good strategy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I say we publish as normal. If WMF Office blanks the page, we still have The Signpost mirror. This is very different from pages deleted/blanked by community consensus, or pieces formally retracted. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

signpost.news is hosted on Wikimedia servers on wikitech:Portal:Toolforge, as the signpost.news domain just masks over signpost.toolforge.org. Svampesky (talk) 15:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is not true; that is just a testing server. The actual live application runs on my own webserver. jp×g 🗯️ 04:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quote from Primefac, probably relevant. SerialNumber54129 10:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the consideration, but the Signpost team and the functionaries are all grown adults, so if we all decide we feel like rolling around wrestling in the mud, I think we are capable of arranging the event on our own. jp×g 🗯️ 17:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quote from Jimbo. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, something reasonable that takes into account all perspectives -- I can see why people demand this guy be gone. jp×g 🗯️ 17:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested copy of article

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Request_copy_of_WMF-office_protected_page

Bluerasberry (talk) 14:03, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is archived on e.g. archive.is Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, one might be tempted to say that makes this application of OS policy make less sense. jp×g 🗯️ 17:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, i just actually read the article which i hadn't done before for some reason. Probably a good reason to be able to see the content is to ask if it was following P&G and was really content for readers. fiveby(zero) 13:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiveby, even empty it's gotten tens of thousands of clicks over the past couple weeks. I think readers are interested. I created the article, and when I write I typically do follow P&G as closely as I'm able; what are you questioning re: P&G? Valereee (talk) 12:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that editors might wish to look at the archived content. But we can't really discuss that content, can't see the history or talk page, can't quote any content here. Wouldn't you look skeptically at content generated about some other case if an editor was invested in the outcome? Believe i can say here on WP: the tone of the "Background: WMF" section seems a little off. I really just read citations in WP articles tho, so don't like #2-b, opinion piece cited for fact. Also #3, not sure that should be used at all. General distaste for news and how citations are used. Minor stuff but may appear strange to readers not familiar with WP style, like providing 5 citations for something you don't really need to cite at all. Minor stuff. But i do see how an outsider looking in might have a more critical opinion not really knowing the P&G's and how content is generated. fiveby(zero) 13:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you are getting at with Wouldn't you look skeptically at content generated about some other case if an editor was invested in the outcome??

I agree it's hard to write about Wikipedia. So meta. Which is why I moved to article space within, IIRC, hours. So others could help tweak things like tone. Often when I'm first writing an article, citations get added to a sentence because the most recent citation includes a new bit of info but not all the info previously in the sentence. So, yeah, a work in progress.

Won't comment on notnews, as whether this qualifies is probably a matter of opinion. Valereee (talk) 14:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not like i'm in any position to say it if i am getting at something. Didn't edit the article but added a link to a news article on the talk page about hostage taking laws because i happened to like the content. Perhaps "take a critical look" would have been better wording than "look skeptically". That critical look is the only way to say with confidence that there were no or just minor P&G issues with the article. fiveby(zero) 14:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FTR, I'm not invested in the outcome of the case. I don't think I'd ever heard of ANI before this brouhaha. Made my first edit there October 10. So I'm not one of the editors ANI is asking for PII on. Valereee (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Q&A

I can imagine a Q&A style section of our writeup on this that would cover:

What is the Delhi High Court
- What is its jurisdiction
- Can it be appealed
- How do its judges gain office there
Who is seeking Wikipedia content change (blanking/deletion) and to what end
- Is the court an independent actor themselves, specificaly wrt contemptuous language about the court
  - If this applies, what kind of language is likely to trigger blanking/deletion demands
- Exactly what pages (or suite of pages?) are subject to blanking/deletion
- Also, in what language editions
- What is the potential and likely duration of blanking/deletion
Who is seeking Wikipedia editor information from WMF and to what end
- What kind of editor information does WMF hold, and for how long
- Editing what page or pages would put an editor in the class of editors whose information is demanded
How does contempt of court differ in India from other countries with English law tradition
- What would lead one to think a court order may extend to a non party to the WMF/ANI case, especially if the non party is not an India resident or corporation
What is at stake for non compliance with this court
- Does WMF have offices there
- Does WMF derive significant revenue from Indian sources
- Is a full WP ban likely or even possible, in case of non compliance

☆ Bri (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri: I have some draft answers at User:Bluerasberry/ANI FAQ. I did not answer some of your questions because they were hard, and because I thought that perhaps you had some answers in mind. Can you suggest a column type for a Q&A? There are lots of options. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The closest alignment I see at the Signpost content guidance page is In Focus: Usually a submission from a Wikipedia editor or group of editors that focuses on a current specific feature or process of Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundation, or concern of the editors that does not fit into Op-Ed, Special Report, or any other regular rubric. "Process or concern of interest" sounds about right to me... ☆ Bri (talk) 03:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, did a quick read of the In Focus, and I like it. One thing I'd recommend spending a little more effort on -- what is sub judice in non-US jurisdictions and how does it work, maybe contrast to the US protocol where the First Amendment pertains, most especially to the press and other third parties. Does this imply that court ordered speech restrictions come in two flavors a) one that is permanent as the result of the plaintiff's claims of harm b) one that is temporary for the duration of the lawsuit? ☆ Bri (talk) 16:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it's not too late, can we somewhere describe the difference between the Supreme Court of India and the Delhi High Court? It seems that the Delhi High Court is somewhat analagous to the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in the United States, this would be good to point out if it is true. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

confused

No idea where I should note this, but the draft at [9] was just wrong. It's not the blanked page that the courts are asking for information on the editors. It's the ANI article. Those are two different articles. I wanted to at minimum make sure we weren't posting something that is completely incorrect. Valereee (talk) 20:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee: Thanks and yes. I have a more detailed story at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/In focus. Are you available to check that? My intent was to tell a story for a general audience including non-Wikipedians and journalists, which they could understand and use for their own storytelling. That version distinguishes between the two articles and the differing challenges to each. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still not sure this is a great idea, but I've edited. Valereee (talk) 11:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see an editorial there, promoting the views of Wikipedia editors, to an audience of Wikipedia editors. Is there a separate news story? Oh i see it, right below. fiveby(zero) 13:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"ANI v. WP", "in the usual way, brief". Lists threads and pages which may be of interest, and pulls out the statement. But it doesn't really attempt to summarize any of the information, to allow the reader to quickly get pertinent information with a "brief" reading.

"Wikipedia editors face defamation accusation", a section named "In focus" would imply to me more in depth-coverage, still mostly informational content with probably some "news analysis", but not editorializing. A "narrative for non-Wikipedians and journalists", it seems that most journalists outside India are not really interested. I would title the current item here "To Journalists in India: an appeal from Wikipedia Editors".

Wikipedians, non-Wikipedians, and journalists all need much of the same informational content. I don't think either of the current articles do a very good job at providing that information. fiveby(zero) 14:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee: thanks for the edits, thanks a lot, really. @Fiveby: I might not be able to do a good job, but I am trying to be satisfactory and either be the best in The Signpost, or attract anyone else to Signpost to do a better job. If you have constructive criticism or can make edits yourself then advise. Also, check out other drafts in the next issue and see if you can critique. Thanks a lot for the feedback, please keep it coming. I will write more tomorrow. Weekend deadline. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the headline needs to emphasize about WMF agreeing to provide user data to Indian Courts rather than something more generic like "More ANI vs WMF, this time as questions and answers". TrangaBellam (talk) 19:24, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Outline of coverage

Here is my proposal for ways in which we report this story:

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/News and notes - news coverage in the usual way, brief
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/In focus - ~~1500 word narrative for non-Wikipedians and journalists~~ Q&A
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/From the editor - I think the important thing to emphasize here might be editorial independence. Confirm that The Signpost does not need or seek permission from the WMF/WMF legal/the WMF board, and that the WMF encourages The Signpost's editorial independence.
[[10]] moved, 1500 word narrative
Community view - an editor in India is drafting a submission about the state of the regional wiki community

other ideas:

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/Technology_report - could be about WP:BLACKLOCK, IP masking. This could be the place to report other blacklock usage from other languages
(any format) - overview on the state of Wikipedia in India, including links to mailing list and feeds, something about grants and funding, list of Wikimedia community organizations, and notice of WikiConference India 2025

I am still interested in writing more. I greatly appreciate anyone's feedback and guidance. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bluerasberry (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

updated a bit Bluerasberry (talk) 02:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Potential people to contact for comment

Eric Garcetti, US Ambassador to India
- https://www.ericgarcetti.com/contact-us
Delhi High Court
- https://newdelhi.dcourts.gov.in/contact-us/
Embassy of India, Washington, D.C.
- https://www.indianembassyusa.gov.in/pages/MjA
Asian News International
- https://www.aninews.in/contact-us/

I am not yet sure what I want to ask. Any ideas? Bluerasberry (talk) 02:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you really think the involved Judges — or someone else from the High Court — will give you a byte? Also, the Embassy, huh?!

Barring ANI, nothing makes sense in this list. And even in the case of ANI, contacting them will only serve to provoke them. I appreciate Signpost but nobody outside WP has any interest in understanding (and appreciating) Signpost's journalism. I also fear that engaging in journalism like this will affect WMF's claims in Court about being a content aggregator, etc.

So, I suggest that contacting some good academic scholar of Indian free speech jurisprudence — Gautam Bhatia (lawyer) and the likes — might be a more productive axis to move along. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prediction: The diplomats will reply with 'no comments' in a diplomatic manner. The High Court would go something like 'are you serious now? sub judice, round 2? let's go'. ANI being a party to the case would also not comment, unless their legal team allows it. – robertsky (talk) 09:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Robertsky: You make it sound like those responses would be a bad thing, and fruitless. I disagree. Even a non-comment on record is better than speculation about what each side is up to. I laid out the Q&A above because this thing is so baroque, I'm having trouble with it. And you never know. This might be a diplomat's opportunity to diplomatically tell Indian courts to go piss up a rope when it concerns regulation of U.S. people and entities. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fruitless, yes. A bad thing? Honestly I didn't think much when I wrote the above comment, in fact, nothing at all. A passing jib, if you may. If you want diplomats to stir the nest, I won't look at United States since the nation has to contend with the upcoming elections. The government and diplomatic corp wouldn't want to rock the boat too much on the international front when it is clear that there is going to be a transition in leadership at the top, be it either way. (Canada is another matter though, if at least one of the three editors turns out to be a Canadian.) – robertsky (talk) 15:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Upcoming musical Humour page

I think including a satirical song about the ANI court case is a very bad idea. I understand the reasons for including it in News and Notes, but the Humour seems like it could easily be interpreted as mocking the court, which does not sound like a good idea. IANAL, but I don't think we should post that Humour page. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've already communicated similar concerns to JPxG for him to evaluate. It also might be a copyright violation [11]. Svampesky (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I highly doubt that this is a copyright issue, but at any rate it seems highly inadvisable. Firstly, as it includes stuff written in a language the author does not speak, aimed derisively towards people who do speak said language. Secondly, as it involves AI in some way, which means that it will cause people to mald -- nay, to norwood -- if it is published. Thirdly, because it seems to be a deliberate attempt at provocation that does not bring any useful benefit to us -- if this gets deleted, which it obviously will, and I am forced to come up with some convoluted way of hosting it offwiki (a thing which we have never actually done before), the person who gets nasty letters and an ANI thread over it is me, which I am willing to do for reporting that actually serves the public interest, and maybe even for a joke that is funny, but this is neither of those things. jp×g 🗯️ 17:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship is a very serious matter. It is contrary to Wikimedia positions on human rights, freedom of the press, and access to knowledge. The Indian courts are incorrectly treating censorship lightly in this matter. It may not be authoritarian or fascist in this case, but it is an error, an encroachment of community rights, contrary to Wikimedia values, and encouraging to any authoritarian, fascist, or ill-meaning others who now have an example which demonstrates success in censoring Wikipedia.

One correct reaction to this kind of oppression is humor. The correct kind of humor may not be the humor that I demonstrated from AI, but humor is an appropriate response.

The worst possible response is lack of reaction. @QuicoleJR and Svampesky: for the reasons you state, my attempt at humor missed the mark, but please support the use of humor and invite other kinds of responses to censorship. Please help by soliciting other kinds of responses as you can. If you can imagine any kind of humorous response which you could support, then describe it to the extent of your ability. I am doing what I can to recruit other contributors to this next issue, and I take the censorship very seriously. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry: I like the current content on the Humor page. I think it is an effective way to poke fun at the court order without causing any major problems, and it is also pretty funny. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

feedback about humor from editor in India: use humor that has the Wikimedia community poking fun at both the Wikimedia Foundation, and the Indian courts. This clarifies that Wikimedia community and Wikimedia Foundation are not the same. Also it raises light that the Wikimedia community in India has serious complaints about Wikimedia Foundation and has its own set of unanswered requests, which the Wikimedia community supports. Among the complaints: Wikimedians in India want the Wikimedia Foundation to not encroach in community growth in India, and to leave the community in India to speak for itself rather than relying on WMF for statements to media, etc. Having a humorous statement from someone outside of India can be ideal because people in India may not feel comfortable using humor, even if they want to do so, but people in India would give feedback and comments if asked. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15

The solution to the various issues that've been raised is for someone to contact the WMF directly to clarify what The Signpost can and can't/shouldn't publish on WMF servers (either by email or on a public forum), and if publishing off-site is allowed, as it will still be under the Signpost/Wikipedia/Wikimedia branding. Svampesky (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, we should operate as normal. Until and unless WMF Office takes an official Office action, it's both the simplest and most straightforward thing to do. And if it does take action, WMF has absolutely zero say on what happens off site, and we can just keep the story on the Signpost mirror. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend that JPxG consult with the WMF and keep them updated on the next issue drafts before publication, especially if this could potentially escalate into a legal matter. I don't know how the WMF should be contacted for these kind of potential legal matters, but I assume JPxG is already familiar with the process. Who actually owns the Signpost branding, and would it count as an extension of Wikimedia to publish it off-site under this branding (in a legal context)? Svampesky (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't recommend that JPxG go around and ask if anybody wants to censor us. If they have any recommendations they can come to us. I certainly wouldn't recommend that he submit stories for pre-publication approval/censorship. If they want or need to censor us - that's up to them. But submitting to it as if we are their employees or serfs would be way over the line. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No one owns the Signpost branding, and the WMF has zero say in what the community does, both on and off wiki. The only time the WMF has "a say" in anything is when it is legally required by law/courts to do something, as described in WP:OFFICE. And, unless the Signpost engages in copyright violations, systematic harassment, other forms of unprotected speech (privacy violations, defamation, etc...), or dumb-ass trollery (like re-publishing the contents of the WMF-blanked page), the WMF will have no business interfering with anything we do, unless ordered by courts. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no option to communicate with the Wikimedia Foundation @Svampesky: It would be a huge help if you could author a submission which described how you imagine The Signpost could contact the Wikimedia Foundation, what sort of support you imagine they would consider offering, and how you imagine this relationship works.

In my view, a major reason why this censorship is happening at all is because the court in India - and much of the world - incorrectly assumes that the Wikimedia Foundation has editorial input and interaction with the content on Wikipedia. I would like to address this notion intensely and directly in the next issues of The Signpost. The reality that is see is that Wikimedia community members - including our on-wiki roles for administrators, stewards, checkusers, bureaucrats, Arbitration Committee members, and our off-wiki roles for Wikimedia chapters, outreach coordinators, grant recipients, and the rest - all completely lack any relationship with the Wikimedia Foundation which involves editorial oversight or advice.

Svampesky, you are not wrong for asking, but please sound any alarms you can find and call over anyone in authority whom you believe may see otherwise. Not only is there no editorial relationship between community journalism like The Signpost and the Wikimedia Foundation, but also, it is fundamental to Wikimedia community values and journalistic ethics that there never be any such relationship.

A great line of discourse to explore is the extent of the Wikimedia Foundation's commitment to hosting community journalism. The Signpost advocates for the Wikimedia community of editors and the users, whereas the Wikimedia Foundation has another mission, other values, and other priorities. The two are not the same. I believe that the Wikimedia Foundation's values include a commitment to hosting The Signpost in the Wikipedia platform, but that could be explored and discussed.

Svampesky - to be clear - I am unaware of anyone in the Wikimedia community with whom the Wikimedia Foundation would be willing to discuss the topic you raise. I do not think any such person or role exists. I think it is a misunderstanding to imagine that the Wikimedia Foundation would agree to discuss the topic you raise with the Wikimedia community. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the single-sentence response to your comment, but my recommendation is that JPxG email the appropriate WMF staff member to ensure that anything published on its servers won't violate the court order. Svampesky (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky and Bluerasberry:. We're supposed to be covering these folks - reporting on what they do wrong as well as what they do right. This includes WMF employees such as folks in communications, legal, on the board, even the ceo. And it also applies to admins and arbs. Feel free to ask these folks about facts (try not to ask about things that you *know* that they can't answer or ask about very time consuming but trival matters - you'll have to sometimes ask about serious matters and they should be able to take you seriously). It's quite natural to communicate with them, but it's absolutely wrong to ask around to see if they want to censor you. @JPxG: seems to be handling this very well. Trust him. Ask him questions (usually in private if they are very serious) or ask your Signpost colleagues. But never ask around to see if somebody wants to censor you - on any important story somebody will - and then you put your self and The Signpost in a false position if you and the E-I-C decide it needs to be published. You'll have some input, but ultimately it is not your call. Your call is to find the facts, triple check them, find out the E-i-C's view on sensitive stories, and write it up to publish if they want it. We usually want all the factual stories we can get, but some stories can have unintended consequences if we publish. That is the E-i-C's call. And never ask anybody to censor you. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just slightly surprised (!) but it looks like we have a "From the editors" article that I can support. Of course I made a few changes, but it doesn't change the meaning. @Bri, HaeB, and JPxG: and those who have contributed here before (all 579 or so), please sign on as authors. And it should be "From the editors" not "From the editor". And @Blue Rasberry: could you change the illustration to read "Editing Wikipedia (line break) should not be a crime"? Perhaps one point where people might disagree with me - I've just avoided using the word "right" as in "God-given right" or "Natural right". I do believe in "natural rights" in a very simple way - if I got to do something to protect my life (or things needed to protect my life like communicating freely), I'm going to do it and everybody who disagrees better step back. The same as I reserve my ability to do this, I should respect others who do the same. Sometimes people who throw around the word "rights" tend to get away from the basics. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good "from the..." piece, and I signed it. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry, @Smallbones, @Bri: Now that revisions of the Technology report have been suppressed and the image removed by an Oversighter, the line We have been an independent newspaper for almost two decades should probably be slightly amended to something like We have been an independent newspaper for almost two decades; but we are limited to English Wikipedia policies while we are hosted on the site. This will explain to the reader why The Signpost isn't allowed to report on some things, so we don't get accused of censorship. Svampesky (talk) 13:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15 publishing this weekend is imperative

Since many of us are U.S. based, I think it would be a really Good Thing to finish publication before the 2024 United States elections happening on Tuesday. There's going to be plenty of distraction then, and potentially a push to include more timely content that would end up delaying publication. @JPxG: what do you say? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am keen on publishing this weekend before the US elections. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not JPxG, but I concur heartily with Bri. If we have 4 or more articles in a fairly complete state by Friday, we should publish what we have by Sunday night. There's always some excuse not to publish on deadline, but let's make an absolute commitment to publish by noon Monday, come hell or high water. It looks like we'll have more than 3 articles ready, but if not - we just don't publish until the next Sunday. Dragging it out never works. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Night shift has got my clock cycles confused, and I was going to copyedit everything today, but my landlord showed up with a guy to install a new dryer vent with no warning directly the fuck in the middle of me sleeping a few hours ago, so I am running on about three hours of sleep tonight and I need to leave in a couple hours to go stack damn boxes until 8am again. There is no possible situation where I hit publish in the next three hours, Sunday is the absolute earliest that this can happen -- I am going to try to go back to bed. jp×g 🗯️ 00:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to be able to provide much in the way of usefulness today. I cannot go into further detail. I will try to look over and give feedback during my shift. jp×g 🗯️ 17:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am approximately done with my submissions but not in a rush to get this published, although sooner is better. I prefer to wait until we have reasonable editorial process complete. I take responsibility for my own submissions, but take some time to sleep and be a biological creature. Publishing in a few days would not be a tragedy or untimely, even if that US presidential election is going to be a major distraction. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

News and notes

I'm inclined not to include in this issue a community ban of a 10+ year editor, that resulted from bad behavior at RfAs. It doesn't seem to be related to the new elections process, just everyday bad behavior. Bringing it up here in case it merits more discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Traffic report

There were several "#19"s in the TOP25 report which obviously goes to 10 in our slimmed-down edition. I've done my best rewording it, not wanting to give either candidate undue attention or criticism but I'm stuck on the last one. I would have said "if the former President is returned to office" instead of in the case of #19 winning the election – but this undermines the author's thesis that a new era of American fascism would result were he elected next week, which kind of makes it look like we don't know that he was already president for four years. Anyway. Go for it. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Writing deadline

Just noting here, the writing deadline has passed for this issue, and major new content should not be coming in at this point, in order to stay on schedule. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JPxG, Bri, Blue Rasberry, and HaeB: This issue is a mess so far. I will have about 4 items to put in In the media which will be done by midnight tonight. The rest of the issue has a split personality problem. There's no consensus among Signpost staffers what to do about the Indian situation, BR is ploughing straight ahead with a no holds barred condemnation, JPxG seems to agree that Jimbo has the right idea and we should be non-confrontational (but still mention the problem briefly on our own initiative). I'm going to recheck my understanding by rereading the above discussions and getting back. But without hearing any guidance from the E-I-C, I'll be tempted to remove at least half of the more confrontational material tomorrow morning to make sure that we have some issue that could be published without contradicting ourselves, and replace at least some of the removed material with new stuff. Let's get our act together here! Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reread all the discussion above (since the last issue) and my understanding of our individual POVs remains. They are essentially contradictory. I do think @JPxG: does need to clearly state how he intends us to put out a non-self-contradictory issue. Key issue: confrontational or non-confrontational. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smallbones: I will finish my editing by end of day today. My approach is no negativity and no attacks, but yes, I am making the case that Wikipedia editors are not to be attacked by corporations and yes Wikipedia is not to be censored. If I say "do not attack Wikipedia", then no one should take that as personal condemnation. I will check the text and yes please, I would greatly appreciate you double-checking it for tone in the way you describe tomorrow morning. Bluerasberry (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/From_the_editor ready for copyedit and sanity check

I need more time for the rest, will be on it Sat 2 Nov morning till done. I know it is urgent. I am up to date on the story and just want to close out what I started. Bluerasberry (talk) 01:17, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/Technology_report ready for copyedit Bluerasberry (talk) 13:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping. I wasn't planning to be involved in this issue (apart from doing the socials after publication, as always). However, if we need to fall back to the kind of EiC absence procedures that were already used a couple of times in the last few years in order to get a delayed issue over the finish line (with e.g. Bri taking on the responsibility again to enact the final button press and run the publication script, as he already did several times over the last two years), I could conceivably chip in a bit by reviewing and approving locum tenens some of the sections without original India-related reporting, namely ITM, Gallery and Traffic report. (Generally, in such cases that should IMO be done by longtime Signpost team members who were ideally not involved with the story in question or are at least not on the byline.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 01:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry, I plan to provide more detailed feedback later since I didn't contribute any writing to this issue. My initial concern is with the From the editor column, which includes an image that says, "Editing Wikipedia is not a crime." This misrepresents the current situation. While editing Wikipedia isn't illegal, the case is about allegations of defamation; which would be a crime. I want to clarify that I'm not expressing an opinion on whether defamation occurred because I'm not fully familiar with the details of the case, the Indian legal system, or Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Svampesky (talk) 14:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: Great feedback. Would you be more comfortable if this moved from "from the editor" to an op-ed from me, or some other kind of section heading?

I interpret the Wikipedia community discussion as consensus that there is nothing whatsoever unusual about the Wikipedia editing which happened in that article. It is maximally examined, and that examination produced no outstanding complaints about the Wikipedia editorial process or its outputs. I am reading the room, and if there is defamation in this article, then my interpretation is that the accusation is that Wikipedia's process of summarizing and citing third-party reliable journalism is fundamentally defamation. I am calling that out as an error, and in that context, "Editing Wikipedia is not a crime". There is such a thing as shared objective truth and it is okay for us to interpret that. I see no complexity in this evaluation. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~I suggest rephrasing it to something like, referencing independent sources is not a crime, without using the word reliable~~. The reliability of sources used on Wikipedia is determined internally by its contributors, which means that just because Wikipedia considers a source reliable, it doesn't mean it's objectively reliable outside of Wikipedia. Svampesky (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I struck my comment, as repeating a defamatory statement is considered a crime (even if done accidentally) in some places, and I'm not sure about the specifics of the ongoing case. Svampesky (talk) 15:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: I am quite ignorant. I do not know what legal consequences there may be to my journalism. I take responsibility for this; this is not on you. Whether you read the text in this link or not, do you have any comment on me attempting to post the defamatory statements here, which I did?

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/In_focus

There is a specific question and answer there about "what is the defamatory text". Bluerasberry (talk) 17:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an expert in legal matters—and this shouldn't be read as scaremongering—but my advice is to proceed with absolute caution. From what I understand, the court in India ordered the takedown of a page published on the website ‘Wikipedia’ which discussed the case File:October 16 2024 ANI v Wikimedia order.pdf, and the Wikimedia Foundation complied. In my non-expert opinion, this appears to function like a cease-and-desist order against discussing the case on Wikimedia servers. If you were to republish details about the case, on Wikimedia servers, it might constitute a violation of this 'cease-and-desist' and could result in you becoming a party to the case. Svampesky (talk) 17:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: I do not have access to a lawyer and my role here is as volunteer Wikipedia journalist. I certainly do not want to harm the Wikipedia community, The Signpost, or the Wikimedia Foundation. Speaking for myself, I am a white United States male who researches Wikipedia professionally at a university. I am exactly the kind of person who is ideal to take the risk of being a target for a lawsuit. It has become apparent to me in talking with editors in India that they are highly fearful to comment on this case or express themselves openly. My fellow editors in the United States also wish to avoid being targeted in a lawsuit. I do not have personal finances to address a lawsuit, but I am better positioned than most people to receive wiki criticism because I already routinely experience insane Wikipedia stalking as an organizer for WikiConference North America, LGBTQ and Wikipedia and Wikimedia community outreach through Wikimedia New York City and similar. I do not want harassment but I am simply better positioned than a lot of other people to speak for Wikimedia community interests in The Signpost. Among other protections, I have a mental health counselor whom I meet regularly and with whom I discuss only Wikimedia harassment. Counseling is a necessary expense of being a Wikipedian in residence. I can carry journalism and messages to publication as an editor for other Wikipedians who cannot take such risks. I appreciate and accept your concern.

I welcome and invite the Wikimedia Foundation to delete any of this journalism if it is inappropriate. As I said in the editorial I wrote, neither I nor anyone I know has a communication channel to ask if our host might need to censor this story. I mean well in writing it and am not trying to be provocative or confrontational. This is just journalism that needs to happen. Bluerasberry (talk) 18:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How does I am a white United States male who researches Wikipedia professionally at a university. I am exactly the kind of person who is ideal to take the risk of being a target for a lawsuit have any relevance to this discussion? Nonetheless, as this involves active litigation, my advice is to exercise extreme caution. There is no deadline, and The Signpost can always report about it—on Wikimedia servers—after the case has concluded. Svampesky (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also want to say that I hope my pre-publication feedback helps to avoid any Wikimedia harassment, as the concerns I've mentioned might've been widely discussed in the comment sections once they're published. Svampesky (talk) 19:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: Yes, right, if this case were the target of a lawsuit, the subject of newspaper journalism, or some student's thesis in anthropology, then our dialogue would be studied and considered as representative of the usual Wikipedia editorial diligence.

Ah, women are super harassed and stalked for being public figures in Wikipedia. Non-white people in the United States who are public spokespeople for Wikipedia get extra criticism. As an American, I am in a World Bank high-income economy so I am surrounded by social and technical infrastructure which makes countless positive things happen to me without me trying get them. In contrast many Indian people are in a LMIC, so for example, they typically do not have random stranger professionals familiar with technology conflict who come to them with solutions. Those people spontaneously contact me. There are 1000 things that can go wrong with posting journalism here and a major part of success which resolves 100s of those problems is simply my demographic. My dharma is to play this role into which I was born.

For example, a woman could do this of course, but she absolutely would face sexual and gender based harassment for publishing the same content which I am submitting. A person in India could have done it, but they would be much more likely to be a lawsuit target. I do not exactly want to be the center of all this but I am looking around, wondering who can do this, and just feeling like "We need to be the change we wish to see in the world". Bluerasberry (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that, but I wasn't talking about cyber-stalking or harassment, I'm talking about the court order. If the court ordered a takedown of a page published on the website ‘Wikipedia’ that discussed the case—and the WMF complied—my advice is to not have a new page published on the website ‘Wikipedia’ that discusses the case. I'm saying that if the court becomes aware of this page, I doubt they would check your race, nationality, or gender before considering it a violation of the court order. Svampesky (talk) 19:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: At the behest of Wikipedia editors and Wikimedia community consensus, The Signpost is prepared to leave the Wikimedia platform to publish at https://signpost.news/ which is active right now. Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2023-08-31/From_the_editor has details on this. It would change a lot to move The Signpost outside of the Wikimedia platform, and to separate it from Wikimedia content and the Wikimedia community. The option to do so and that working prototype is there to support people in having the conversation about whether to ask The Signpost to leave. It is there to demonstrate that the option to leave is in consideration, and that The Signpost remains here welcome with support from the Wikimedia community. There is no misunderstanding about The Signpost's scope of journalism coverage having an invitation to exist here. There is no standing volunteer community editorial request for The Signpost to leave, or change its scope of journalism. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry, it should be made clear that signpost.news is a mirror site set up to pull and display content from Wikipedia URLs with a different web theme. It doesn't host any content itself. I had a look into how signpost.news works and found that it is hosted on Wikimedia servers on wikitech:Portal:Toolforge, as the signpost.news domain just masks over signpost.toolforge.org. Svampesky (talk) 15:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF lawyers are adept in their craft. If they felt any restrictions were necessary, they would let the community know. isaacl (talk) 21:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think the WMF, and its legal department, have shown that they care about the well-being and legal-safety of editors? Svampesky (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To answer your question, yes, given that it has a legal defense fund for editors. But it's also a separate issue from your expressed concern, which was regarding a court order to the WMF on taking down certain content. The WMF is responsible for this, and so its lawyers will do what's necessary to protect the WMF's interest, including communicating to the community about any restrictions they feel are necessary. isaacl (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am I missing something? The WMF will remove pages due to the court order, but have made it clear that it is not involved in the editorial content on Wikipedia. This means that the WMF won't stop pages that violate the court order from being published on the website ‘Wikipedia’, but they will take them down if requested. As a result, the editors who created the page would become parties to the case for violating the court order. My advice for the past day-or-so has been to contact the WMF for advice to protect editors from this happening. Svampesky (talk) 18:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A third-party can't violate a court order issued to someone else. You have to be issued a court order in order to violate it. Apart from the court order, it's true that a Signpost editor might make an edit in violation of Indian law, and thus become at risk to be identified and served with a court order or prosecuted. I agree editors should take this into consideration when they decide what edits they are willing to make. isaacl (talk) 18:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lane done with content

I felt strongly about this issue and I routinely report on Wikimedia issues in India. I am done with major content contributions to this issue. My submissions are marked ready for copyedit. I am at hand for revisions, critiques, and changes. I welcome anyone to edit anything I submitted, including substantially, to get out whatever has Signpost editorial consensus or support as a community view. Here are my submissions-

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/In focus, the Q&A
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Special report, the prose narrative
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Technology report, review of specific Wikipedia tech which plays into this story
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/News and notes, regular column, links to Wikipedia community discussions and WMF statements
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/From the editor, essay on editorial independence and answer to calls that we seek permission from WMF to publish

Bluerasberry (talk) 18:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Book report

I just noticed we have another new, unreviewed, review of The Editors at the submissions page. I will format it up, link it from the Article status list, and leave it standing. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~It is posted at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Book review.~~ ☆ Bri (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am an idiot. This text was included in issue 14. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15 Special report

I’ve mentioned this briefly above, but I recommend amending all text about reliable sources as a factual statement in the upcoming issue, unless it's clear that these sources are only considered reliable by the Wikipedia community. The reliability of sources on Wikipedia is determined by its contributors, so just because the community decides a source is 'reliable', it doesn't mean it's objectively reliable outside of Wikipedia.
The Special report currently reads, the complaint was that Wikipedia summarized what was already contained in reliable sources., and should be changed to something like, the complaint was that Wikipedia summarized what was already contained in sources the Wikipedia community deems reliable. Svampesky (talk) 15:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: Perhaps, I am open to change, but I am generally resistant to the idea that Wikipedia's editorial process is fringe or that it needs explanation or justification. My belief is that there is a shared objective truth on what constitutes reliability. While there are exceptions and edge cases to anything, Wikipedia's process is not the underdog and there is no need to defend what we do. When the Wikipedia community deems something reliable, that is a reflection of normal global human consensus. BBC is among the challenged sources here, and the other sources seem aligned with BBC reporting. If someone wants to challenge whether BBC is reliable or legitimate journalism, then they are the ones that need to speak up. Wikipedia should not need to qualify itself for summarizing BBC journalism.

These are not sources "only considered reliable by the Wikipedia community". These sources are the best the world has to offer in terms of journalism, and they are aligned with third party journalism reviews like Poynter Institute evaluation. Right? Am I addressing you entirely and directly? Please tell me more. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia should not need to qualify itself for summarizing BBC journalism is a stance which I respectfully oppose. From a Google search of 'BBC bias' there are reports being published today—from other sources Wikipedia deems reliable—reporting on accusations of it having a pro-Israel bias. No source is absolutely reliable, and should not be labelled as 'reliable' as a fact. Svampesky (talk) 16:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: I am comfortable with anyone saying that BBC is biased, and that BBC is a bad source. It is still objectively among the very best journalism sources that humanity has produced, and for that reason, it is reliable. Reliable in Wikipedia often means "best in the world, best that humanity has to offer". No one should expect the term to indicate Platonic ideal or divine transcendence. Yes, BBC is absolutely reliable. It is reliable even if other, similarly reputable reliable sources publish contrary or conflicting claims. Journalism is among the humanities and as such, is achievable. No reasonable person should have any expectation that the output of journalism must exceed the norms of routine human achievement. BBC is objectively reliable journalism because it goes through all the processes and culture of journalism, regardless of any bias it has or its relative quality to any other journalism. Similarly, The Signpost is free to do journalism at the level that Wikipedia volunteers can achieve, because journalism's definition is a social construct designed to be achievable by typical humans doing things. The Signpost has a right to exist as reliable journalism without being a billion-dollar media house like BBC, because journalism is a thing that people do.

Your concerns are valid and I respect you answering the question, but life is for humans to do human activities. The words we use describe human levels of quality and human expectations. I think that you are missing the mark to expect more than more than the human culture of collaboration. I am not willing to take a defensive stand from low-effort, fringe actors saying that the BBC is not legitimate journalism. Without a thorough explanation from the underdog, dismissing BBC and similar is insincere trolling. I commend you for probing this but I think I am solidly aligned with other Wikipedia editors when I say that we are comfortable identifying, summarizing, and citing reliable sources, and there is a shared understanding of what this means that goes beyond only Wikipedia editorial culture. Bluerasberry (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The statement that a source is reliable, in a factual tone, does suggest it is absolutely reliable. I agree with No reasonable person should have any expectation that the output of journalism must exceed the norms of routine human achievement, which is why The Signpost shouldn't state that sources are 'reliable' in a definitive tone.
If The Signpost is to have a broad reach, it shouldn't write in a tone that would only be understood by Wikipedians, and Reliable in Wikipedia often means "best in the world, best that humanity has to offer". needs to be clarified in the report to readers who are not familiar with Wikipedia. Svampesky (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I am persuaded. Let me ponder and revise. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: The article is getting long but I added more at special:diff/1255019412/1255027861. Good journalism is short and concise journalism. I am not achieving that, but there is discussion of reliability in Wikipedia. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The odd part"

I'm not a lawyer, but The odd part from a Wikipedia editor perspective is that Asian News International seems more interested in challenging Wikipedia's way of summarizing and citing information from other sources, than it is in challenging the original journalists and news agencies misinterprets how damages would work in a legal setting. There would be more damage from alleged defamatory statements being permanently (re-)published on one of the most-visited websites—as a Wikipedia article serves as a go-to document for the general public about an organization—and less damage from it being published in a news report that people would likely forget by the next day. There is nothing odd about this, and to label it odd is entirely subjective for a news report, and misses this vital context. Svampesky (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky: thanks and revised special:diff/1254207882/1254999540 yes, that wording was a poor choice. I also tried to incorporation your reasoning on why this is happening Bluerasberry (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would you consider removing Wikipedia editors do not do original research, but instead they summarize reliable sources while citing those sources, as this is a false statement? Wikipedia editors have, on many occasions, done original research. Svampesky (talk) 18:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I revised special:diff/1255014430/1255019412 I could go further. I linked to WP:NOR and made the statement less absolute, which is more correct as you say. Speak up if you want me to try to soften more. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15 Technology report

@Bluerasberry: a correction is required on this paragraph: The Signpost made requests to see the deleted text with permission from Wikipedia Administrators and Wikipedia Oversighters, who are moderators with specific and different user permission. Neither of those groups have access because of the black lock. No one in the Wikimedia community has access to the deleted text through the Wikimedia platform.

Oversighters have access to the deleted text. It is just that they are bounded by NDA not to reveal the deleted revisions as communicated in response to your request for a copy of the protected page. As such, there are only 41 Oversighters within the English Wikipedia project have access to the deleted page. – robertsky (talk) 16:24, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

special:diff/1254963586/1254992526 revised Bluerasberry (talk) 16:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Archive.today link

I have suppressed the link to the archived copy of the article at archive.today from the signpost report as a precaution - we do not know the exact terms of the legal injunction so it is possible these would breach it. I've asked WMF legal whether the links are OK, and I (or another oversighter) will leave a note here when we get a response, unsuppressing if they say the links are fine. Based on previous interactions a response is likely to take at least a couple of days. Thryduulf (talk) 09:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf, JPxG, Blue Rasberry, and Bri: I can't speak on this for The Signpost, only JPxG can. We've had some disagreement among Signposters on this and related topics, but I'm happy to say we've made great progress in agreeing to disagree while still getting out an important issue covering a divisive topic. Special thanks to Blue Rasberry on this. You might have seen me flailing about on that article yesterday, not really knowing what to do with the link. I do think it best that I finally just removed the link, and I personally do not object to you oversighting it (on your own initiative), but I hope you withdraw your request to the WMF for input. Just let them do what they think best on their own. I did what I think best. You've done what you think best. After withdrawing your request to the WMF, I suggest that we let things stand as they are now. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JPxG is currently busy with off-wiki commitments, but I believe he has been in contact with WMF legal—as this involves active litigation—about what is okay to be published on the website ‘Wikipedia’. This is not about censorship, it's about hosting content on its servers that could damage the case. Svampesky (talk) 16:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After withdrawing your request to the WMF... that makes a rather large assumption that Thryduulf is the only one who is in contact with the WMF about this matter. Primefac (talk) 17:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why I would withdraw the question to WMF legal? Why would we not want to know whether they are happy with such links? Thryduulf (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: if you are happy with how the article stands now, and The Signpost is happy with it, what's to gain by getting WMF legal involved? If for some odd reason, you want to reinstate the link or the history, you should see what @JPxG: thinks. After all, he is the E-i-C and has to approve everything before it is published. If for other reasons, you just want to find out what the WMF thinks about the question, that's up to you - but it doesn't have anything to do with The Signpost. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost is hosted on WMF servers and it recently took down a page from its servers because of active litigation. Svampesky (talk) 20:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF may say that the link is acceptable, or it might corroborate that removal was appropriate. In the latter case it gives us a precedent for the next time someone (not necessarily a Signpost editor) might post that link. Primefac (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also in the former case it means that if someone else posts the link it means we won't need to oversight it. It will also act as a guide if some other article is taken down for legal reasons - while uncommon this is at least the second I know of (the first was years ago and related to something to do with Texas Instruments and trade secrets or something like that, I only remember vaguely). Thryduulf (talk) 20:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You had a opportunity more than a week ago. Your comment immediately below mine containing the link included: My comment was primarily because of past issues that the Signpost has had regarding deleted/suppressed information. 08:33, 22 October 2024 11:36, 23 October 2024 Why is oversight appropriate based on who posts the material? fiveby(zero) 20:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the implications of my alter ego, I am human; on the OS thread I saw you were referencing the content but missed the archive-url, and I never looked at the AN thread any further than seeing SN's ping and noticing it was related content. I have now corrected my (lowercase o) oversight. Primefac (talk) 21:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually getting out the issue. Concrete steps.

@Blue Rasberry and JPxG:

BR: The pic on From the editors was pretty good, but I think the text needs to change to "Editing Wikipedia (line break) Should Not Be a Crime" I really can't make that change myself. My 2nd best choice would be the photo on the right.

JPxG: I'm really with those folks who think that the issue has to come out today. I'll do my best to put everything into publishable form within three hours. Please publish or take charge then. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I called out of work today due to still being sick which means that after I sleep I can publish. Thanks to everyone for working on this issue. jp×g 🗯️ 09:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where we stand for publication

@JPxG: it looks to me like

From the editors - is ready to go after a bit of copy editing, replace pic (see above)
Gallery - is ready to go after a small bit of copy editing
Humour - just don't publish it, anything else would get very complicated
In the media - just a bit of CE needed
News and notes - a key article. Do you want a lede? Milestones needed (or just leave them out)
Technology report - another key article. Copy editing needed
Traffic report - CE done, ready to go IMHO
In focus - copy editing
Special report - copy editing If and Sr are definitely good articles and I'd hate to remove the hard work of other editors. It is getting a bit repetitive however.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is one of the things I was afraid of, if we missed deadline, and even missed the weekend for publishing. As of about 30 minutes before noon Pacific time Monday, Wikipedia:Administrator elections/October 2024/Results has been posted, and I don't have time during the workweek to do proper analysis at News and notes. I'll just add a quick update to list the new administrators. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Signpost standardization proposal: Newsroom timezone

Proposal: The Signpost newsroom standardizes its timezone to UTC.
When editors post comments saying I'll do x in the morning, it leaves it to others to work out when this morning is. If we standardize to UTC, it would mean that only the person posting would need to check the timezones once, rather than leaving it up to each and every reader of the comment to figure out when things will be done. This can be done either by changing language of the morning task to, for example I'll do x in the evening, or saying I'll do x in the morning (15:00 UTC). Svampesky (talk) 14:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, as proposer. Svampesky (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have considered doing a timezone thing in the template before to show what time it is in various zones, so this would not be hard to do if people wanted it. jp×g 🗯️ 17:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost timezone is UTC+0, like every else on Wikipedia. If someone says "I'll do it in the morning", expect it to be done within more or less 24h, like everywhere else on Wikipedia. We're an international volunteer collaboration, we don't need this level of bureaucracy. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When I attach a day to a statement I usually specify Pacific time – is the conversion back to UTC onerous? In other words, is conversion from my local time zone an imposition on the reader? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15 In the media

I've been checking with an editor over email before posting this because I don't want to waste time with non-issues. I'm raising a concern that using the term Musky as a play on the name of a living person in a disparaging/negative way—I've read as childish-namecalling synonymous with smelly or fishy—might violate the WP:BLP, which applies to all Wikipedia pages. I know I might come across as overly cautious, but this will be an important Signpost issue, especially since the one covers the case in India. I would advise reviewing this. Consider opting for Musk's priorities, as it's more neutral because these BLP and namecalling concerns. Svampesky (talk) 19:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please do some actual copy editing. JPxG can decide on this as he wishes. But we have an issue to get out. At this point I don't think raising fairly theoretical issues helps toward reaching that goal. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15 In focus

@Bluerasberry: In the section 'What are the demographic details of the journalists writing for The Signpost?', do you know what actual statistics are? We shouldn't sugarcoat it, no matter how negatively it affects our image, and simply state, The Signpost is mainly written by men. We should stick to the facts and have the negative parts about The Signpost, such as disparities, published in The Signpost. As demographic details of editors would fall under WP:BLPPRIVACY and WP:PRIVACY, I'm sure you'll err on the side of caution before demographic details published in the report. Svampesky (talk) 23:10, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure of the relevance of the section 'What are the demographic details of the journalists writing for The Signpost?' is to the article. Adding more to it would likely subtract from the value of the article as a whole. @Svampesky:, we don't ask for demographic details when somebody submits an article to The Signpost and I think most contributors would consider it intrusive. That said I think I can tell you that my impression is that the demographics of Signpost staffers is similar to English-language Wikipedians as a group. You can try to get those numbers as well as anybody in the newsroom can, but I'll guess: there's a self-selected, self-reported survey of the percent women that's at least 3 years old that was approx. 20% women, 80% men, with the percentage women having increased slightly from 5 years before. The geographic mix, just estimate who you run into while working. It's likely 30-40% North American, 20-25% Brits, 15-20% other Europeans, 5-10% other countries with English as their mother tongue, then a mix of everybody else. But that's just my guess. The Signpost may be geographically more diverse, except for more North Americans. Now is there something you think would "negatively ... affect our image" in that? and how is it related to the article? You should learn to do your own research. We're here to answer people's questions, not just ask provocative questions. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should learn to do your own research. We're here to answer people's questions, not just ask provocative questions. The absurdity is ridiculous. What provocative questions have I asked? The question was asked by Bluerasberry—not by me—and I'm giving him advice, in good faith, on how to answer it for his report. Me and him have been discussing this off-wiki and has asked me to post my concerns for others to see, as he might be too busy before publication to attend to it. And yes, The Signpost being ran by 80% men and only 20% women is objectively a negative thing, as it's a disparity. Svampesky (talk) 05:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The Signpost being ran by 80% men and only 20% women is objectively a negative thing"

That's an opinion, not a fact. I don't know what the gender breakdown is for signpost writers is, and I honestly don't care. It's probably around the same as general editorship, which is probably around where we should be. I wouldn't be surprised if some issues were entirely written by men. It would be extremely strange to have a 50-50 writer breakdown when Wikipedia itself is not 50-50. This shouldn't be the goal either. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A hyperbole is an exaggerated statement that shouldn't be interpreted literally. Svampesky (talk) 13:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend deleting the demographic section if there is no consensus at this time. The important demographic information which came up for the Asian News International story is that I am not Indian, and we do not have an editor from India on this story. In asking questions about this story, multiple people asked me what I have to do with India, including my nationality. So far I have been unable to recruit a Wikimedian in India to put their name on comments about this case, and my attempts to solicit a story or submission from a Wikimedian in India have been unsuccessful.

My other demographics are only relevant in the context of disclosing more, assuming that I /we need to report the lack of Indian community representation in this story.

In another time, with more preparation, I would be happy to help organize a demographic survey of The Signpost contributors which is a bit more robust and less speculative. There is nothing to hide here, but we do not have verified facts to report, and it would be misleading to report facts anyway without situating them in an appropriate social context to assist readers in interpreting the information.

Some social context for now: the Wikimedia Foundation has historically asked Wikimedia community organizations to do demographic surveys. In my opinion, the Wikimedia Foundation has not been successful in developing tools or processes which community volunteers can do this with satisfactory accuracy or meaning, or to have enough utility for creating standardized data multiple groups could combine to detect broader trends. This is identified as a valid topic of conversation, and it is also difficult even for well-funded researchers to interpret. Bluerasberry (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Deleted. Any journalist who wants to do an investigation is welcome to organize that and publish in a future issue. Bluerasberry (talk) 20:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

news from India is confusing

Times of India
The Indian Express "Centre issues notice to Wikipedia, asks why it should be treated as intermediary and not publisher"

These are to me the most understandable articles about a new action by "the Centre", but they still don't make a lot of sense. As I understand it a) the government (aka The Centre) believes that the Wikipedia model of individual editors is "dangerous", but that a powerful group (admins?) control what's on Wikipedia, so the WMF is in control of article content, so they lose claims to being just an intermediary, and are open to claims of libel. No that doesn't make any sense to me, but ...

@JPxG, Blue Rasberry, HaeB, and Bri:, I'll put a series of links below for anybody who wants to make sense of it. They are now 10-12 hours old. What to do? Maybe? Just pull all our India related stories - they just don't make sense anymore.

Then publish the 5 or so articles we do have immediately. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Several judges in the Delhi court has commented on WP, one of them said "dangerous". Now the government has also commented on WP, but that is a separate (well) issue from what the court says. That's my understanding. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think waiting on the India news is the right decision, unless our coverage is hopelessly garbled – and I don't believe that is the case. Better to get what we have in front of the community, to get discussion and awareness going. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

recent India press

NDTV - standard story, next hearing Wednesday
M9 news
Economic Times not much here.
Business Standard, starting to look like it's all from the same press release. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Hindu a bit different, cites article about [YouTube summary]

Former Arb is saying goodbye

Just saw this. Don't know what else to say here. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Michael V. Dougherty (21 May 2024). New Techniques for Proving Plagiarism: Case Studies from the Sacred Disciplines at the Pontifical Gregorian University. Leiden, Boston: Brill Publishers. doi:10.1163/9789004699854. ISBN 978-90-04-69985-4. LCCN 2024015877. Wikidata Q126371346.

[2] Kidane Dawit Worku (2012). The Ethics of Zär'a Ya'eqob: A reply to the historical and religious violence in the seventeenth century Ethiopia. Tesi Gregoriana, Serie Filosofia 30. Rome: Editrice Pontificia Università Gregoriana. ISBN 978-88-7839-222-9. OL 43974394M. Wikidata Q126414328.

[1]

[2]